新冠疫情導(dǎo)致經(jīng)濟(jì)衰退,作為一名破產(chǎn)律師,,斯圖爾特·高德正處在令人討厭的第一線,。但他早已有所準(zhǔn)備:他在破產(chǎn)領(lǐng)域有三十多年的豐富經(jīng)驗(yàn)。他從1987年開始擔(dān)任美國破產(chǎn)管理人,,同時(shí)也是密歇根州紹斯菲爾德破產(chǎn)律師事務(wù)所Gold Lange & Majoros的聯(lián)合創(chuàng)始人兼主理合伙人,。
在政府救濟(jì)計(jì)劃的支持下,美國還沒有出現(xiàn)破產(chǎn)潮,,但高德認(rèn)為,,破產(chǎn)案例將迎來“海嘯式”增長。小企業(yè)主可能遭遇意想不到的財(cái)務(wù)困境,。高德從如何充分利用最新救濟(jì)計(jì)劃到看待破產(chǎn)的最好方式等方面,,為小企業(yè)主們提供了一些重要的建議。(破產(chǎn)不是“失敗”,。)
高德最近接受《財(cái)富》雜志新專欄“新冠經(jīng)濟(jì)”的采訪,,談?wù)摿怂墓ぷ?、疫情期間的封鎖令對其工作的影響,以及他對未來的預(yù)測,。
為明確起見,以下采訪內(nèi)容經(jīng)過精簡和編輯,。
《財(cái)富》:在正常時(shí)期,,您每天的工作是什么樣子,?
高德:我在1987年成為一名美國破產(chǎn)管理人。如果個(gè)人或企業(yè)根據(jù)《破產(chǎn)法》第7章申請破產(chǎn),,我們會對債務(wù)人進(jìn)行審查,,確定債務(wù)人的哪些資產(chǎn)可以出售和分配給債權(quán)人。
我有近一半的工作與破產(chǎn)管理有關(guān),。我今天上午處理了與約70場聽證會有關(guān)的工作,,作為破產(chǎn)管理人,我每個(gè)月會有兩次這樣的安排,。而且你要為此做好準(zhǔn)備,,審查債務(wù)人的資料,確定債務(wù)人是否有任何資產(chǎn)可以分配給債權(quán)人,。從根本上來說,,我就是債權(quán)人的律師。
我的另外一部分業(yè)務(wù)是代表個(gè)人債務(wù)人申請破產(chǎn),,以及與企業(yè)合作,,根據(jù)《破產(chǎn)法》第11章申請破產(chǎn)保護(hù),或者處理破產(chǎn)程序以外的解散事宜,。
新冠疫情給您的日常工作帶來了哪些變化,?
正常情況下,破產(chǎn)管理人聽證會要面對面進(jìn)行,。我和債務(wù)人,、債務(wù)人的律師以及債權(quán)人,要在一個(gè)房間里審查他們的財(cái)務(wù)事宜,。房間里還有[其他人的]案件等待舉行聽證會,。
但現(xiàn)在我們只能通過電話完成聽證。我們會開通債務(wù)人和債務(wù)人律師的會議專線,,并通知債權(quán)人同時(shí)上線,。我們從3月開始一直在這樣做,而且最近剛剛得到通知,,這種模式可能至少要延續(xù)到8月,。
在與50個(gè)人召開電話會議的時(shí)候,,如果有一個(gè)人的手機(jī)沒有靜音,這會是一件很痛苦的事情,。但律師們已經(jīng)習(xí)慣了這種模式,,他們會提醒客戶:“嘿,一定要把手機(jī)調(diào)到靜音,?!?/font>
我一直通過電話與客戶交流和進(jìn)行初步咨詢,并遠(yuǎn)程處理相關(guān)資料,。我們必須進(jìn)行資料審核,,如果客戶有能力和設(shè)備,我會使用Zoom完成審核,。有些人可以進(jìn)行Zoom通話,,但有些人無法使用Zoom。
人們對破產(chǎn)是什么態(tài)度,?
我想說,,大部分客戶都認(rèn)為破產(chǎn)是失敗。他們來律所的時(shí)候經(jīng)常淚流滿面,。我們盡量告訴他們,,破產(chǎn)已經(jīng)存在了幾個(gè)世紀(jì)。它包含在我們的憲法當(dāng)中,。在資本主義社會,,破產(chǎn)是必要的,它給人們一次從頭再來的機(jī)會,,讓創(chuàng)業(yè)者敢于嘗試新事物,,并為他們提供一個(gè)安全網(wǎng)。我們希望人們敢于冒險(xiǎn),。
客戶來到律所的時(shí)候認(rèn)為自己是失敗者,,而我們會盡量讓他們重新樹立信心,讓他們知道有許多人像他們一樣在采用這種救濟(jì)方式,。而且破產(chǎn)的存在是有原因的,。
許多人陷入了困境,包括很多人可能從沒有想過他們會需要破產(chǎn),。哪些人應(yīng)該考慮破產(chǎn)呢,?
重要的是與專業(yè)人士交流,了解所有破產(chǎn)和非破產(chǎn)方案,。人們知道破產(chǎn)并不光彩,,他們應(yīng)該知道破產(chǎn)會對他們有哪些影響,比如對信用評級的影響,。他們擔(dān)心會失去一切,;他們不知道有些豁免規(guī)定可以保護(hù)他們的資產(chǎn),。所以,對現(xiàn)狀進(jìn)行評估非常重要,。
對于企業(yè)來說,,重要的是他們要明白,除了簡單地關(guān)門倒閉以外,,他們還有其他選擇,,比如根據(jù)新頒布的第5分章進(jìn)行重組等。重要的是:不能采取“一刀切”的做法,。有些解決方案針對的是財(cái)務(wù)問題。我曾經(jīng)處理過和解案件,,不涉及破產(chǎn),,只是與債權(quán)人合作。每個(gè)案件都是不同的,,重要的是掌握所有信息,。
新冠疫情預(yù)計(jì)將造成巨大的經(jīng)濟(jì)損失。這是否意味著您的工作量會增加,?
恰恰相反:破產(chǎn)申請數(shù)量減少了約50%,。國會通過的救濟(jì)計(jì)劃支持人們存活下去,人們現(xiàn)在還不需要破產(chǎn)救濟(jì),。
但這些福利總有用光的時(shí)候,。預(yù)計(jì)在今年第三四季度,破產(chǎn)申請數(shù)量會大幅增加,。有人將未來的情況比作海嘯:雖然眼前海水正在退去,,但等到再次漲潮的時(shí)候?qū)⒆尩偷刈兂梢黄粞蟆_@場破產(chǎn)潮不僅會席卷個(gè)人消費(fèi)者,,企業(yè)也難以幸免,。
您是否準(zhǔn)備增加人手?
當(dāng)然,。在大衰退的高潮時(shí)期,,我們的律師事務(wù)所曾經(jīng)有30名員工,現(xiàn)在只有不足一半,。我們預(yù)計(jì)會有許多人申請破產(chǎn),,因此我們將在第三和第四季度加大招聘力度。
第5分章有時(shí)候被稱為“快速通道”,,是專門針對小企業(yè)的一種新型破產(chǎn)方式,。它有什么優(yōu)勢?
國會在去年秋天通過該條法規(guī),,事實(shí)證明這是非常及時(shí)的,。破產(chǎn)的整體成本會大幅下降,。而且企業(yè)破產(chǎn)的速度很快,基本上只需要四個(gè)月時(shí)間就能完成,。與傳統(tǒng)的第11章相比,,第5分章下的破產(chǎn)計(jì)劃審批程序?qū)鶆?wù)人更友好。
該條法規(guī)最初施行時(shí)所針對的是負(fù)債270萬美元以下的企業(yè)?,F(xiàn)在其適應(yīng)范圍已經(jīng)擴(kuò)大到負(fù)債750萬美元以下的企業(yè),。這些企業(yè)可以充分利用這種簡化的破產(chǎn)方式。
您在工作中與人們互動,,肯定能了解到他們的人生中最艱難的時(shí)光,。從職業(yè)的角度,您如何對待他們的遭遇,?
找到我的人確實(shí)背負(fù)著沉重的財(cái)務(wù)和感情負(fù)擔(dān),,因?yàn)樗麄兪チ私?jīng)營多年的公司。我們盡量尋找其他選擇,。如果公司的業(yè)務(wù)是可行的,,我們可以考慮重組。
在破產(chǎn)管理人電話會議中,,我遇到過許多非常害怕的債務(wù)人,。破產(chǎn)可以免除你的債務(wù),但并不能解決養(yǎng)家糊口的問題,,除非你有收入來源,。
這些人備受折磨,既要面對財(cái)務(wù)上的困境,,還要承受感情上的折磨,。所以,在我的工作中,,同理心是必不可少的,。(財(cái)富中文網(wǎng))
譯者:Biz
新冠疫情導(dǎo)致經(jīng)濟(jì)衰退,作為一名破產(chǎn)律師,,斯圖爾特·高德正處在令人討厭的第一線,。但他早已有所準(zhǔn)備:他在破產(chǎn)領(lǐng)域有三十多年的豐富經(jīng)驗(yàn)。他從1987年開始擔(dān)任美國破產(chǎn)管理人,,同時(shí)也是密歇根州紹斯菲爾德破產(chǎn)律師事務(wù)所Gold Lange & Majoros的聯(lián)合創(chuàng)始人兼主理合伙人,。
在政府救濟(jì)計(jì)劃的支持下,美國還沒有出現(xiàn)破產(chǎn)潮,,但高德認(rèn)為,,破產(chǎn)案例將迎來“海嘯式”增長。小企業(yè)主可能遭遇意想不到的財(cái)務(wù)困境。高德從如何充分利用最新救濟(jì)計(jì)劃到看待破產(chǎn)的最好方式等方面,,為小企業(yè)主們提供了一些重要的建議,。(破產(chǎn)不是“失敗”。)
高德最近接受《財(cái)富》雜志新專欄“新冠經(jīng)濟(jì)”的采訪,,談?wù)摿怂墓ぷ?、疫情期間的封鎖令對其工作的影響,以及他對未來的預(yù)測,。
為明確起見,,以下采訪內(nèi)容經(jīng)過精簡和編輯。
《財(cái)富》:在正常時(shí)期,,您每天的工作是什么樣子,?
高德:我在1987年成為一名美國破產(chǎn)管理人。如果個(gè)人或企業(yè)根據(jù)《破產(chǎn)法》第7章申請破產(chǎn),,我們會對債務(wù)人進(jìn)行審查,,確定債務(wù)人的哪些資產(chǎn)可以出售和分配給債權(quán)人。
我有近一半的工作與破產(chǎn)管理有關(guān),。我今天上午處理了與約70場聽證會有關(guān)的工作,作為破產(chǎn)管理人,,我每個(gè)月會有兩次這樣的安排,。而且你要為此做好準(zhǔn)備,審查債務(wù)人的資料,,確定債務(wù)人是否有任何資產(chǎn)可以分配給債權(quán)人,。從根本上來說,我就是債權(quán)人的律師,。
我的另外一部分業(yè)務(wù)是代表個(gè)人債務(wù)人申請破產(chǎn),,以及與企業(yè)合作,根據(jù)《破產(chǎn)法》第11章申請破產(chǎn)保護(hù),,或者處理破產(chǎn)程序以外的解散事宜,。
新冠疫情給您的日常工作帶來了哪些變化?
正常情況下,,破產(chǎn)管理人聽證會要面對面進(jìn)行,。我和債務(wù)人、債務(wù)人的律師以及債權(quán)人,,要在一個(gè)房間里審查他們的財(cái)務(wù)事宜,。房間里還有[其他人的]案件等待舉行聽證會。
但現(xiàn)在我們只能通過電話完成聽證,。我們會開通債務(wù)人和債務(wù)人律師的會議專線,,并通知債權(quán)人同時(shí)上線。我們從3月開始一直在這樣做,而且最近剛剛得到通知,,這種模式可能至少要延續(xù)到8月,。
在與50個(gè)人召開電話會議的時(shí)候,如果有一個(gè)人的手機(jī)沒有靜音,,這會是一件很痛苦的事情,。但律師們已經(jīng)習(xí)慣了這種模式,他們會提醒客戶:“嘿,,一定要把手機(jī)調(diào)到靜音,。”
我一直通過電話與客戶交流和進(jìn)行初步咨詢,,并遠(yuǎn)程處理相關(guān)資料,。我們必須進(jìn)行資料審核,如果客戶有能力和設(shè)備,,我會使用Zoom完成審核,。有些人可以進(jìn)行Zoom通話,但有些人無法使用Zoom,。
人們對破產(chǎn)是什么態(tài)度,?
我想說,大部分客戶都認(rèn)為破產(chǎn)是失敗,。他們來律所的時(shí)候經(jīng)常淚流滿面,。我們盡量告訴他們,破產(chǎn)已經(jīng)存在了幾個(gè)世紀(jì),。它包含在我們的憲法當(dāng)中,。在資本主義社會,破產(chǎn)是必要的,,它給人們一次從頭再來的機(jī)會,,讓創(chuàng)業(yè)者敢于嘗試新事物,并為他們提供一個(gè)安全網(wǎng),。我們希望人們敢于冒險(xiǎn),。
客戶來到律所的時(shí)候認(rèn)為自己是失敗者,而我們會盡量讓他們重新樹立信心,,讓他們知道有許多人像他們一樣在采用這種救濟(jì)方式,。而且破產(chǎn)的存在是有原因的。
許多人陷入了困境,,包括很多人可能從沒有想過他們會需要破產(chǎn),。哪些人應(yīng)該考慮破產(chǎn)呢?
重要的是與專業(yè)人士交流,,了解所有破產(chǎn)和非破產(chǎn)方案,。人們知道破產(chǎn)并不光彩,,他們應(yīng)該知道破產(chǎn)會對他們有哪些影響,比如對信用評級的影響,。他們擔(dān)心會失去一切,;他們不知道有些豁免規(guī)定可以保護(hù)他們的資產(chǎn)。所以,,對現(xiàn)狀進(jìn)行評估非常重要,。
對于企業(yè)來說,重要的是他們要明白,,除了簡單地關(guān)門倒閉以外,,他們還有其他選擇,比如根據(jù)新頒布的第5分章進(jìn)行重組等,。重要的是:不能采取“一刀切”的做法,。有些解決方案針對的是財(cái)務(wù)問題。我曾經(jīng)處理過和解案件,,不涉及破產(chǎn),,只是與債權(quán)人合作。每個(gè)案件都是不同的,,重要的是掌握所有信息,。
新冠疫情預(yù)計(jì)將造成巨大的經(jīng)濟(jì)損失。這是否意味著您的工作量會增加,?
恰恰相反:破產(chǎn)申請數(shù)量減少了約50%,。國會通過的救濟(jì)計(jì)劃支持人們存活下去,人們現(xiàn)在還不需要破產(chǎn)救濟(jì),。
但這些福利總有用光的時(shí)候。預(yù)計(jì)在今年第三四季度,,破產(chǎn)申請數(shù)量會大幅增加,。有人將未來的情況比作海嘯:雖然眼前海水正在退去,但等到再次漲潮的時(shí)候?qū)⒆尩偷刈兂梢黄粞?。這場破產(chǎn)潮不僅會席卷個(gè)人消費(fèi)者,,企業(yè)也難以幸免。
您是否準(zhǔn)備增加人手,?
當(dāng)然,。在大衰退的高潮時(shí)期,我們的律師事務(wù)所曾經(jīng)有30名員工,,現(xiàn)在只有不足一半,。我們預(yù)計(jì)會有許多人申請破產(chǎn),因此我們將在第三和第四季度加大招聘力度,。
第5分章有時(shí)候被稱為“快速通道”,,是專門針對小企業(yè)的一種新型破產(chǎn)方式。它有什么優(yōu)勢?
國會在去年秋天通過該條法規(guī),,事實(shí)證明這是非常及時(shí)的,。破產(chǎn)的整體成本會大幅下降。而且企業(yè)破產(chǎn)的速度很快,,基本上只需要四個(gè)月時(shí)間就能完成,。與傳統(tǒng)的第11章相比,第5分章下的破產(chǎn)計(jì)劃審批程序?qū)鶆?wù)人更友好,。
該條法規(guī)最初施行時(shí)所針對的是負(fù)債270萬美元以下的企業(yè)?,F(xiàn)在其適應(yīng)范圍已經(jīng)擴(kuò)大到負(fù)債750萬美元以下的企業(yè)。這些企業(yè)可以充分利用這種簡化的破產(chǎn)方式,。
您在工作中與人們互動,,肯定能了解到他們的人生中最艱難的時(shí)光。從職業(yè)的角度,,您如何對待他們的遭遇,?
找到我的人確實(shí)背負(fù)著沉重的財(cái)務(wù)和感情負(fù)擔(dān),因?yàn)樗麄兪チ私?jīng)營多年的公司,。我們盡量尋找其他選擇,。如果公司的業(yè)務(wù)是可行的,我們可以考慮重組,。
在破產(chǎn)管理人電話會議中,,我遇到過許多非常害怕的債務(wù)人。破產(chǎn)可以免除你的債務(wù),,但并不能解決養(yǎng)家糊口的問題,,除非你有收入來源。
這些人備受折磨,,既要面對財(cái)務(wù)上的困境,,還要承受感情上的折磨。所以,,在我的工作中,,同理心是必不可少的。(財(cái)富中文網(wǎng))
譯者:Biz
As a bankruptcy attorney, Stuart Gold is on the ugly front lines of the coronavirus downturn. But he’s well prepared: he has been in the field for more than three decades. Since 1987, he has been a U.S. bankruptcy trustee, and he is a cofounder and managing partner with Gold Lange & Majoros, based in Southfield, Mich.
Thanks to government relief programs, bankruptcies haven’t started surging yet, but Gold says he’s expecting a “tsunami” of cases. He has some important messages for small-business owners who might find themselves in an unexpected financial bind, from new programs to take advantage of to the best way to think about bankruptcy. (“Failure” isn’t it.)
Gold recently spoke with Fortune for a new series, The Coronavirus Economy, about his work, how it has changed under lockdown, and what he sees coming.
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.
Fortune: What does your workday look like, during normal times?
Gold: I’ve been a U.S. bankruptcy trustee since 1987. When an individual or a corporation applies for bankruptcy under Chapter 7, we examine the debtor and determine whether there are any assets that the debtor has that we can sell and distribute to creditors.
About 50% of my practice is devoted to trustee work. I handled about 70 hearings this morning, and I do that twice a month, for my trustee side. And there’s preparation for that, you have to review debtor’s documentation, to see if there are any assets that should go to creditors. I’m an advocate for the creditors, basically.
The other half of my practice is devoted to representing individual debtors filing for bankruptcy, as well as working with businesses to file under Chapter 11, or to handle their dissolution outside of bankruptcy.
How has the coronavirus changed your work on a day-to-day basis?
Well, normally my trustee hearings are in person. It’s me, a debtor, and debtor’s counsel, and any creditors, in a room to review their financial affairs. And in the same room are [people waiting for] other cases to be heard.
But now we’re doing them strictly by phone. We have conference lines for debtors and debtors’ counsel to call in, and notice to the creditors that they can be on the line at the same time. We’ve been doing it since March, and we just got notice that it will continue at least through August.
It’s painful to be on a conference call with 50 people and one person doesn’t mute their phone. But attorneys are getting used to it, and advising their clients, “Hey, make sure your phone is muted.”
I’ve been talking to clients and doing the initial consultation over the phone, and we are securing documents remotely. We have to review documents, and I’ve been doing that through Zoom—to the extent that clients have the ability and the equipment. Some do, and some don’t.
What attitudes do people bring with them about bankruptcy?
I would say the majority of clients come in thinking it’s failure. There are a lot of tears when they come in. And we do our best to assure them bankruptcy has been around for centuries. It’s embedded in our Constitution. In a capitalistic society, bankruptcy is necessary to allow people a fresh start, and to let entrepreneurs try new things and give them a safety net. We want people to take chances.
They come in thinking that they’re a failure, and we try and build them back up and let them know that they’re only one of many seeking this type of relief. And it’s there for a reason.
A lot of people are in trouble out there, including a lot of people who probably never thought bankruptcy would be something they needed. Who should consider bankruptcy?
It’s important to talk to a professional and get advised of all your options—both bankruptcy and non-bankruptcy. People are aware of the stigma, and they should know how that plays out, for instance in their credit ratings. And they’re afraid of losing everything; they’re not aware of exemptions that can protect their assets. So a review of the situation is important.
For the business side of things, it’s important to realize that there are options other than simply closing your business and walking away, such as the restructuring available under the new Subchapter 5. That’s the important message: There’s just not one size that fits all. There are solutions to financial problems. I’ve done workouts without a bankruptcy where we just work with creditors. Every case is different, and it’s important that you get all the information.
The economic damage from the coronavirus is expected to be substantial. Does that mean more work for you?
It’s been the exact opposite of what you’d expect: The filings are way down, almost 50%. The relief packages passed by Congress have allowed people to survive and to not need bankruptcy relief at this time.
However, those benefits are going to run out. It’s anticipated that in the third and fourth quarter of this year, bankruptcy filings will rise dramatically. Someone referred to what’s coming as a tsunami, where the water is retreating from the coast, and then it comes in all at once and floods the lowlands. It’s coming—not just for individual consumers, but for businesses.
Are you preparing for that by adding staff?
Absolutely. During the height of the Great Recession, our firm had 30 employees, and we’re less than half of that right now. We anticipate we’re going to be ratcheting up and hiring in the third and fourth quarters, because of the deluge of filings.
Subchapter 5, sometimes referred to as “Fast Pass,” is a new kind of bankruptcy specifically for small businesses. What’s the advantage?
Congress passed it last fall, which has turned out to be very timely. The overall cost is going to be substantially reduced. And it’s very quick; you can be in and out in basically four months. And the approval process for the plan is more debtor-friendly than traditional Chapter 11.
When it rolled out, it was for businesses with debts under $2.7 million. Now they’ve [expanded] it to debts under $7.5 million. Those businesses can take advantage of this streamlined approach.
Your career has you interacting with people on what may be some of the worst days of their lives. How do you approach that, in terms of your bedside manner?
People do come in with a lot of financial and emotional burdens, losing businesses they have maintained for a number of years. We try and see if there are options. If it’s a viable business, we can consider a reorganization.
I’m dealing with individual debtors in my trustee calls who are very fearful. Bankruptcy may relieve you of debt, but it doesn’t put food on the table if you don’t have a check coming in.
These people are going through a lot of suffering—financial suffering, emotional suffering. So empathy covers my entire practice.