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你不是在做夢(mèng):疫情確實(shí)徹底顛覆了人類與時(shí)間的關(guān)系

你不是在做夢(mèng):疫情確實(shí)徹底顛覆了人類與時(shí)間的關(guān)系

Bernhard Warner 2020-07-17
這位法國(guó)學(xué)者寫過很多關(guān)于“當(dāng)下主義”的文章,,用來詮釋當(dāng)代的一些謎題。

1909年,,法國(guó)日?qǐng)?bào)《費(fèi)加羅報(bào)》(Le Figaro)頭版刊登了一篇重磅文章——《未來主義的創(chuàng)立和宣言》(The Founding and Manifesto of Futurism),作者是意大利激進(jìn)哲學(xué)家和技術(shù)愛好者菲利波?托馬索?馬里內(nèi)蒂,。在文中,,馬里內(nèi)蒂提出了一個(gè)影響深遠(yuǎn)的觀念,他認(rèn)為技術(shù)和機(jī)械化運(yùn)輸?shù)尼绕饘⒁I(lǐng)一個(gè)創(chuàng)新的時(shí)代,。

如果未來主義有對(duì)立面的話,,那可能就是當(dāng)下主義——一種固守中立的世界觀。說起當(dāng)下主義相關(guān)文章,,很少有學(xué)者比弗朗索瓦?哈托格更多產(chǎn),。這位法國(guó)歷史學(xué)家花費(fèi)幾十年進(jìn)行時(shí)間研究,研究在當(dāng)前快節(jié)奏的世界里,,時(shí)間是如何越來越顯得停滯不前——以及這種現(xiàn)象如何反過來影響我們理解人類共同的過去和應(yīng)對(duì)人類未來共同的挑戰(zhàn)的能力,。

哈托格在他2015年出版的《歷史性的體制:當(dāng)下主義與時(shí)間經(jīng)驗(yàn)》(Regimes of Historicity: Presentism and Experiences of Time)一書中寫到了生活在當(dāng)下主義時(shí)代的情景。該書并未對(duì)人類現(xiàn)代社會(huì)進(jìn)行恭維描述,。想想短期主義,,相比之下當(dāng)下主義只是時(shí)間上更短。哈托格在他的作品中所展現(xiàn)的當(dāng)下主義是一種缺乏遠(yuǎn)見,、憤世嫉俗的世界觀,。

哈托格解釋說,當(dāng)下主義是“一種只有現(xiàn)在存在的感覺,,就像永遠(yuǎn)原地不動(dòng)的‘跑步機(jī)’一樣”,。

“跑步機(jī)”聽起來可能很抽象,那就舉個(gè)例子吧,。例如,,你的侄子剛剛大學(xué)畢業(yè),負(fù)債累累,,而且就業(yè)前景黯淡,。他的未來太痛苦了,讓人不忍想象,?;蛘邠Q個(gè)例子,有一些人否認(rèn)氣候變化,,他們拒絕采取行動(dòng)來拯救地球的未來,。又或者,在社交隔離時(shí)期,,日復(fù)一日的居家生活讓你覺得渾渾噩噩,,你和同事開Zoom會(huì)議的時(shí)候,都想不起來今天到底是周幾。

哈托格指出,,這種當(dāng)下主義的觀點(diǎn)并不能解釋現(xiàn)代生活中的所有謎題,,也沒有揭穿所有可能的論點(diǎn),即認(rèn)為面對(duì)巨大的生存挑戰(zhàn)時(shí),,最好還是維持現(xiàn)狀,,不要對(duì)未來有太多設(shè)想。但是他確實(shí)及時(shí)地觀察了人類在特殊時(shí)期的共同生活經(jīng)歷,,以及為何說人類生活在一個(gè)真正空前的時(shí)代,。

法國(guó)歷史學(xué)家弗朗索瓦?哈托格在巴黎。2019年3月,。照片來源:迪迪埃?古比——由弗朗索瓦?哈托格提供,。圖片來源:Didier Goupy—Courtesy of Francois Hartog

為簡(jiǎn)明起見,以下問答已經(jīng)過編輯,。

《財(cái)富》:您對(duì)封鎖禁令下人們的生活狀態(tài)有何看法,?許多成年人在家工作,在家教育孩子,。對(duì)我們?cè)S多人來說,,時(shí)間已經(jīng)被扭曲。

哈托格:是的,。封鎖禁令實(shí)施之后,,人們突然發(fā)現(xiàn)自己被禁錮在一個(gè)暫停的時(shí)間,一個(gè)永遠(yuǎn)不變的時(shí)間,。人們處于一種禁閉狀態(tài),。日子一天天過去,時(shí)間卻似乎已經(jīng)停止,。但是因?yàn)橛辛穗娔X,,一個(gè)人點(diǎn)擊一下鼠標(biāo),就可以出現(xiàn)在任何地方,。因此,,在我看來,數(shù)字世界從根本上說是一種當(dāng)下主義,,具有即時(shí)性和同步性,。對(duì)于那些被排除在這個(gè)(數(shù)字)世界之外的人來說,情況有所不同,。但最近幾個(gè)月,,數(shù)億人能夠登錄并連接網(wǎng)絡(luò)時(shí),變革就此發(fā)生,。這樣一來,,我們開始擁抱新的數(shù)字環(huán)境,。數(shù)字環(huán)境與人類環(huán)境相比變化巨大……人類足不出戶即可環(huán)游世界。我們可以和朋友們一起通過WhatsApp喝開胃酒,,或者聽音樂會(huì),。可以追蹤每個(gè)地方的每個(gè)時(shí)刻,。我們可以看到一切,,感受一切,見證一切,。不同之處在于我們?nèi)怏w的缺席。

《財(cái)富》:疫情也迫使我們中的一些人反思人類與地球的關(guān)系,。

哈托格:甚至在此之前,,就有人譴責(zé)短期主義——人類社會(huì)越來越以即時(shí)滿足為中心。一個(gè)很好的例子是慢節(jié)奏運(yùn)動(dòng)——慢速生長(zhǎng)的食物,,慢速進(jìn)行的一切,,以及慢下來的需求。有些人崇尚節(jié)儉生活,,于是從城市搬到了農(nóng)村,。在現(xiàn)實(shí)中已經(jīng)形成一種趨勢(shì)。

《財(cái)富》:在您的研究中,,您一定遇到過與人類在疫情中所面臨的情況相似的歷史事件,。

哈托格:我們當(dāng)前面臨的境況前所未見。新冠疫情是一場(chǎng)非常嚴(yán)重的健康危機(jī),。類似性質(zhì)的流行病和健康危機(jī)的歷史與人類歷史一樣古老……但是就疫情來說,,這種流行病的爆發(fā)源于人類與自然關(guān)系的日益惡化。人類導(dǎo)致地球生物多樣性的急劇減少,。當(dāng)前,,完全不同的一點(diǎn)是:人類已經(jīng)成為一種地質(zhì)作用力。這就是人類世的概念……由于新冠疫情,,我們才重新認(rèn)識(shí)到,,人類只不過是物種之一,而且不一定是最強(qiáng)大的物種,。在某種程度上,,我們知道,如果聽之任之,,新冠病毒可以對(duì)人類物種產(chǎn)生抑制作用,。這在以前從未發(fā)生,同時(shí)也對(duì)人類對(duì)現(xiàn)代世界的整體看法(我們對(duì)進(jìn)步的看法,,我們對(duì)自然的掌握)提出質(zhì)疑,。

《財(cái)富》:那么,,您認(rèn)為人類正處于一個(gè)十字路口?

哈托格:是的,。在新冠疫情開始時(shí),,人們認(rèn)為科學(xué)可以發(fā)揮重要作用,而且公眾也一直對(duì)科學(xué)信息高度信任,。這種現(xiàn)象也部分源于政府對(duì)科學(xué)建議的高度依賴,。但是很快就有人對(duì)此提出質(zhì)疑并展開討論。部分原因在于媒體開展討論的方式,。在法國(guó),,人們?cè)诿摽谛愫碗娨暽峡吹降亩际墙】祵<摇S腥诉@樣說,,有人那樣說,。而人們很快發(fā)現(xiàn),科學(xué)在陳述和結(jié)論上做不到如此肯定,。很多時(shí)候,,答案是:‘我們不知道?!@讓人們筋疲力盡,。想到自己不得不生活在不確定中,人們會(huì)感到處境非常艱難,,會(huì)變得焦慮,。

因此,當(dāng)科學(xué)針對(duì)問題無法給出永久性和確定性的看法時(shí),,公眾就會(huì)失去對(duì)科學(xué)的信任,,接著陰謀論自然就會(huì)出現(xiàn):‘病毒是在實(shí)驗(yàn)室里制造的。政府在對(duì)我們?nèi)鲋e,?!辽僭诜▏?guó),這些推測(cè)在街頭引起了廣泛關(guān)注,。

《財(cái)富》:您認(rèn)為公眾會(huì)恢復(fù)對(duì)科學(xué)和專業(yè)知識(shí)的信心嗎,?

哈托格:我不確定。如果疫情消退的話,,可能會(huì),。但是如果再爆發(fā)第二波疫情,那就太可怕了,。公眾對(duì)于醫(yī)學(xué)專家也會(huì)產(chǎn)生極大的懷疑,,對(duì)政府也是如此。他們處于一種難以忍受的境地,。在法國(guó),,公眾對(duì)政府的懷疑和反對(duì)由來已久,。即使在新冠疫情發(fā)生之前也是這樣。

《財(cái)富》:人們對(duì)政府機(jī)構(gòu)的信心正在崩潰,。

哈托格:當(dāng)今的政治實(shí)行的是絕對(duì)的當(dāng)下主義,。特朗普就是最好的示例,而他的推特就是最好的證明,。推特的本質(zhì)是把你拉進(jìn)一個(gè)圈子——有人說了什么,,你回復(fù),幾分鐘后,,推特發(fā)的信息就失去了所有的意義?,F(xiàn)在所有的政客都在用推特進(jìn)行交流。這不僅會(huì)扭曲當(dāng)下,,還會(huì)扭曲瞬間——尤其在下一個(gè)瞬間,,信息的意義完全改變時(shí)。在這種情況下,,你就沒必要再記得三分鐘前說的話。在這種政治環(huán)境中,,首先要做出反應(yīng),,然后才是情感。當(dāng)然,,沒有空間留給你進(jìn)行任何反思或分析,。你也不能置身事外進(jìn)行評(píng)估。你必須親臨現(xiàn)場(chǎng),,每一分鐘都在現(xiàn)場(chǎng),。

《財(cái)富》:您的下一本書是否會(huì)反映人類共同的疫情經(jīng)歷,探討這一經(jīng)歷是否會(huì)對(duì)我們與時(shí)間的關(guān)系造成影響,?

哈托格:我的下一本書叫做《時(shí)間之神:西方與時(shí)間的斗爭(zhēng)》(Chronos: The West’s Struggle with Time),。應(yīng)該在五月份出版。但由于疫情影響,,出版時(shí)間推遲到十月份,。這不是一部關(guān)于時(shí)間的歷史,但是書中以很長(zhǎng)的時(shí)間跨度展現(xiàn)了從基督教世界到人類世(包括人類當(dāng)前面臨的危機(jī))人類對(duì)時(shí)間的理解問題,。(財(cái)富中文網(wǎng))

譯者:Biz

1909年,,法國(guó)日?qǐng)?bào)《費(fèi)加羅報(bào)》(Le Figaro)頭版刊登了一篇重磅文章——《未來主義的創(chuàng)立和宣言》(The Founding and Manifesto of Futurism),作者是意大利激進(jìn)哲學(xué)家和技術(shù)愛好者菲利波?托馬索?馬里內(nèi)蒂,。在文中,,馬里內(nèi)蒂提出了一個(gè)影響深遠(yuǎn)的觀念,他認(rèn)為技術(shù)和機(jī)械化運(yùn)輸?shù)尼绕饘⒁I(lǐng)一個(gè)創(chuàng)新的時(shí)代,。

如果未來主義有對(duì)立面的話,,那可能就是當(dāng)下主義——一種固守中立的世界觀,。說起當(dāng)下主義相關(guān)文章,很少有學(xué)者比弗朗索瓦?哈托格更多產(chǎn),。這位法國(guó)歷史學(xué)家花費(fèi)幾十年進(jìn)行時(shí)間研究,,研究在當(dāng)前快節(jié)奏的世界里,時(shí)間是如何越來越顯得停滯不前——以及這種現(xiàn)象如何反過來影響我們理解人類共同的過去和應(yīng)對(duì)人類未來共同的挑戰(zhàn)的能力,。

哈托格在他2015年出版的《歷史性的體制:當(dāng)下主義與時(shí)間經(jīng)驗(yàn)》(Regimes of Historicity: Presentism and Experiences of Time)一書中寫到了生活在當(dāng)下主義時(shí)代的情景,。該書并未對(duì)人類現(xiàn)代社會(huì)進(jìn)行恭維描述。想想短期主義,,相比之下當(dāng)下主義只是時(shí)間上更短,。哈托格在他的作品中所展現(xiàn)的當(dāng)下主義是一種缺乏遠(yuǎn)見、憤世嫉俗的世界觀,。

哈托格解釋說,,當(dāng)下主義是“一種只有現(xiàn)在存在的感覺,就像永遠(yuǎn)原地不動(dòng)的‘跑步機(jī)’一樣”,。

“跑步機(jī)”聽起來可能很抽象,,那就舉個(gè)例子吧。例如,,你的侄子剛剛大學(xué)畢業(yè),,負(fù)債累累,而且就業(yè)前景黯淡,。他的未來太痛苦了,,讓人不忍想象?;蛘邠Q個(gè)例子,,有一些人否認(rèn)氣候變化,他們拒絕采取行動(dòng)來拯救地球的未來,。又或者,,在社交隔離時(shí)期,日復(fù)一日的居家生活讓你覺得渾渾噩噩,,你和同事開Zoom會(huì)議的時(shí)候,,都想不起來今天到底是周幾。

哈托格指出,,這種當(dāng)下主義的觀點(diǎn)并不能解釋現(xiàn)代生活中的所有謎題,,也沒有揭穿所有可能的論點(diǎn),即認(rèn)為面對(duì)巨大的生存挑戰(zhàn)時(shí),,最好還是維持現(xiàn)狀,,不要對(duì)未來有太多設(shè)想。但是他確實(shí)及時(shí)地觀察了人類在特殊時(shí)期的共同生活經(jīng)歷,,以及為何說人類生活在一個(gè)真正空前的時(shí)代,。

為簡(jiǎn)明起見,,以下問答已經(jīng)過編輯。

《財(cái)富》:您對(duì)封鎖禁令下人們的生活狀態(tài)有何看法,?許多成年人在家工作,,在家教育孩子。對(duì)我們?cè)S多人來說,,時(shí)間已經(jīng)被扭曲,。

哈托格:是的。封鎖禁令實(shí)施之后,,人們突然發(fā)現(xiàn)自己被禁錮在一個(gè)暫停的時(shí)間,,一個(gè)永遠(yuǎn)不變的時(shí)間。人們處于一種禁閉狀態(tài),。日子一天天過去,,時(shí)間卻似乎已經(jīng)停止,。但是因?yàn)橛辛穗娔X,一個(gè)人點(diǎn)擊一下鼠標(biāo),,就可以出現(xiàn)在任何地方,。因此,,在我看來,,數(shù)字世界從根本上說是一種當(dāng)下主義,,具有即時(shí)性和同步性。對(duì)于那些被排除在這個(gè)(數(shù)字)世界之外的人來說,,情況有所不同,。但最近幾個(gè)月,,數(shù)億人能夠登錄并連接網(wǎng)絡(luò)時(shí),,變革就此發(fā)生。這樣一來,,我們開始擁抱新的數(shù)字環(huán)境,。數(shù)字環(huán)境與人類環(huán)境相比變化巨大……人類足不出戶即可環(huán)游世界。我們可以和朋友們一起通過WhatsApp喝開胃酒,,或者聽音樂會(huì),。可以追蹤每個(gè)地方的每個(gè)時(shí)刻,。我們可以看到一切,,感受一切,見證一切,。不同之處在于我們?nèi)怏w的缺席,。

《財(cái)富》:疫情也迫使我們中的一些人反思人類與地球的關(guān)系。

哈托格:甚至在此之前,,就有人譴責(zé)短期主義——人類社會(huì)越來越以即時(shí)滿足為中心,。一個(gè)很好的例子是慢節(jié)奏運(yùn)動(dòng)——慢速生長(zhǎng)的食物,,慢速進(jìn)行的一切,以及慢下來的需求,。有些人崇尚節(jié)儉生活,,于是從城市搬到了農(nóng)村。在現(xiàn)實(shí)中已經(jīng)形成一種趨勢(shì),。

《財(cái)富》:在您的研究中,,您一定遇到過與人類在疫情中所面臨的情況相似的歷史事件。

哈托格:我們當(dāng)前面臨的境況前所未見,。新冠疫情是一場(chǎng)非常嚴(yán)重的健康危機(jī),。類似性質(zhì)的流行病和健康危機(jī)的歷史與人類歷史一樣古老……但是就疫情來說,這種流行病的爆發(fā)源于人類與自然關(guān)系的日益惡化,。人類導(dǎo)致地球生物多樣性的急劇減少,。當(dāng)前,完全不同的一點(diǎn)是:人類已經(jīng)成為一種地質(zhì)作用力,。這就是人類世的概念……由于新冠疫情,,我們才重新認(rèn)識(shí)到,人類只不過是物種之一,,而且不一定是最強(qiáng)大的物種,。在某種程度上,我們知道,,如果聽之任之,,新冠病毒可以對(duì)人類物種產(chǎn)生抑制作用。這在以前從未發(fā)生,,同時(shí)也對(duì)人類對(duì)現(xiàn)代世界的整體看法(我們對(duì)進(jìn)步的看法,,我們對(duì)自然的掌握)提出質(zhì)疑。

《財(cái)富》:那么,,您認(rèn)為人類正處于一個(gè)十字路口,?

哈托格:是的。在新冠疫情開始時(shí),,人們認(rèn)為科學(xué)可以發(fā)揮重要作用,,而且公眾也一直對(duì)科學(xué)信息高度信任。這種現(xiàn)象也部分源于政府對(duì)科學(xué)建議的高度依賴,。但是很快就有人對(duì)此提出質(zhì)疑并展開討論,。部分原因在于媒體開展討論的方式。在法國(guó),,人們?cè)诿摽谛愫碗娨暽峡吹降亩际墙】祵<?。有人這樣說,有人那樣說。而人們很快發(fā)現(xiàn),,科學(xué)在陳述和結(jié)論上做不到如此肯定,。很多時(shí)候,答案是:‘我們不知道,?!@讓人們筋疲力盡。想到自己不得不生活在不確定中,,人們會(huì)感到處境非常艱難,,會(huì)變得焦慮。

因此,,當(dāng)科學(xué)針對(duì)問題無法給出永久性和確定性的看法時(shí),,公眾就會(huì)失去對(duì)科學(xué)的信任,接著陰謀論自然就會(huì)出現(xiàn):‘病毒是在實(shí)驗(yàn)室里制造的,。政府在對(duì)我們?nèi)鲋e,。’至少在法國(guó),,這些推測(cè)在街頭引起了廣泛關(guān)注,。

《財(cái)富》:您認(rèn)為公眾會(huì)恢復(fù)對(duì)科學(xué)和專業(yè)知識(shí)的信心嗎?

哈托格:我不確定,。如果疫情消退的話,,可能會(huì)。但是如果再爆發(fā)第二波疫情,,那就太可怕了,。公眾對(duì)于醫(yī)學(xué)專家也會(huì)產(chǎn)生極大的懷疑,對(duì)政府也是如此,。他們處于一種難以忍受的境地,。在法國(guó),公眾對(duì)政府的懷疑和反對(duì)由來已久,。即使在新冠疫情發(fā)生之前也是這樣,。

《財(cái)富》:人們對(duì)政府機(jī)構(gòu)的信心正在崩潰,。

哈托格:當(dāng)今的政治實(shí)行的是絕對(duì)的當(dāng)下主義,。特朗普就是最好的示例,而他的推特就是最好的證明,。推特的本質(zhì)是把你拉進(jìn)一個(gè)圈子——有人說了什么,,你回復(fù),幾分鐘后,,推特發(fā)的信息就失去了所有的意義?,F(xiàn)在所有的政客都在用推特進(jìn)行交流。這不僅會(huì)扭曲當(dāng)下,還會(huì)扭曲瞬間——尤其在下一個(gè)瞬間,,信息的意義完全改變時(shí),。在這種情況下,你就沒必要再記得三分鐘前說的話,。在這種政治環(huán)境中,,首先要做出反應(yīng),然后才是情感,。當(dāng)然,,沒有空間留給你進(jìn)行任何反思或分析。你也不能置身事外進(jìn)行評(píng)估,。你必須親臨現(xiàn)場(chǎng),,每一分鐘都在現(xiàn)場(chǎng)。

《財(cái)富》:您的下一本書是否會(huì)反映人類共同的疫情經(jīng)歷,,探討這一經(jīng)歷是否會(huì)對(duì)我們與時(shí)間的關(guān)系造成影響,?

哈托格:我的下一本書叫做《時(shí)間之神:西方與時(shí)間的斗爭(zhēng)》(Chronos: The West’s Struggle with Time)。應(yīng)該在五月份出版,。但由于疫情影響,,出版時(shí)間推遲到十月份。這不是一部關(guān)于時(shí)間的歷史,,但是書中以很長(zhǎng)的時(shí)間跨度展現(xiàn)了從基督教世界到人類世(包括人類當(dāng)前面臨的危機(jī))人類對(duì)時(shí)間的理解問題,。

譯者:Biz

In 1909, the French daily Le Figaro carried on the front page “The Founding and Manifesto of Futurism,” a rousing essay by the radical Italian philosopher and technophile, Filippo Tommaso Marinetti. In it, Marinetti championed the rise of technology and mechanized transport to usher in an age of innovation, an enduring concept.

If there is an antithesis to futurism it might be presentism, a kind of stuck-in-neutral worldview. Few academics have written more about presentist thinking than Fran?ois Hartog. The French historian has spent decades studying time, and how, in our fast-paced world, it increasingly appears to stand still—and how that phenomenon, in turn, messes with our ability to make sense of our shared past and the collective challenges we face in the future.

In his 2015 book, Regimes of Historicity: Presentism and Experiences of Time, Hartog wrote about the phenomenon of living in a presentist age. It’s not a flattering description of our modern times. Think short-termism, but only shorter. The presentism that Hartog fleshed out in his writing is a cynical worldview devoid of vision.

Presentism, Hartog explains, is "the sense that only the present exists, a present characterized at once by the tyranny of the instant and by the treadmill of an unending now.”

The treadmill of an unending now may sound abstract—that is, until you consider the plight of, say, your nephew, a recent college graduate with a mountain of debt and few job prospects. His future is too painful to think about. Or maybe it rings a bell as you tune into the arguments of climate change denialists who reject the need to act now to save the planet down the road. Or, maybe you can hear that treadmill grinding in your head in this age of social distancing and stay-at-home orders. Who hasn’t patched into a Zoom call with scruffy colleagues only to wonder, what day is it, anyhow? (Could a COVID-inspired remake of Groundhog Day be in the works?)

Hartog is quick to point out that this idea of presentism doesn’t explain all of modern life’s conundrums. It also doesn’t debunk every argument that, in the face of enormous existential challenges, it’s best to stick with the status-quo. But he did have some timely observations about our shared experience of life in the time of coronavirus, and how we are living in a truly unprecedented age.

The following Q&A has been edited for brevity.

Fortune: What’s your view of our life under lockdown? Many adults juggle work from home with home-schooling the kids. For many of us, it’s warped time.

Hartog: Yes. With lockdown, people suddenly find themselves locked in a suspended time, a time that is always the same. It’s a kind of confinement. The days are passing, but time seems to have stopped. But because of computers, a person can be present everywhere in a click. Therefore, the digital world, I think, is fundamentally presentist. It’s instant and simultaneous. For those excluded from this [digital] world, it’s different, of course. But in recent months, when hundreds of millions of people were able to log in and connect, it was transformative. In doing so, we came to embrace our new digital condition. Our digital condition is a drastic change from our human condition… We were able to travel around the world without leaving our room. We could take part in aperitifs on WhatsApp with our friends, or listen to a concert. We could follow every moment, happening everywhere. We could see everything, feel everything, be present at everything. Only our physical presence was missing.

Fortune: The pandemic also forced some of us to reflect upon our relationship with the planet.

Hartog: Even before the pandemic, you had some people denouncing short-termism—the way our society was increasingly centered around instant gratification. A good example of that was the movement around slow—slow food, slow everything, the need to slow down. There were people who embraced frugal living. They moved out of the city, and into the countryside. It’s a real trend.

Fortune: In your research, you must have come across historical events that are similar to what we are facing in COVID-19.

Hartog: What we are facing here is something unprecedented. This is a very serious health crisis. Pandemics and health crises of this nature are as old as humanity… But with COVID, this pandemic stems from humanity’s deteriorating relationship with nature. We have reduced dramatically the earth’s biodiversity. What is completely new today is that humanity has become a geological force unto itself. This is what’s meant by the Anthropocene… And, thanks to COVID, we have rediscovered that we are just one species, and not necessarily the strongest one. This virus, in a way, could suppress the human species as we know it—that is, if we do nothing. This makes it unprecedented. It puts our whole view of the modern world—our vision of progress, our mastery over nature—in doubt.

Fortune: So, you’re seeing humanity at a kind of crossroads?

Hartog: Yes. At the beginning of the pandemic, the impression was that science had a prominent role, and that scientific message was sticking with the public. That’s also because governments were relying so much on scientific advice. But very quickly doubts entered the discussion. Part of this is because of the way the media set up the discussion. In France, what we saw on talk shows, on TV, were health experts. One says this. The other says that. People discovered very quickly that science cannot be so affirmative in its statements and conclusions. A lot of times the answer was, ‘We don’t know.’ … That’s extremely exhausting for people. This idea that you have to live with uncertainty is very, very difficult. It generates anxiety. And, so, when science didn’t have a permanent and definitive take on the problem, people lost trust. Naturally, conspiracy theories emerge: ‘The virus was made in a lab. The government is lying to us.’ These theories are getting a lot of attention on the streets, at least in France.

Fortune: Do you think the public’s faith in science and expertise will recover?

Hartog: I don’t know. If the epidemic fades away, probably, yes. If there is a second wave—that would be terrible. It will also sow great doubts in medical experts. The same can be said of the government. They are in an impossible position. In France, there has long been suspicions and opposition against the government. This predates the pandemic.

Fortune: Faith in government institutions is crumbling everywhere.

Hartog: Politics these days is nothing if not presentist. Trump is the best example of this, and his Tweets are the best signal of that. He represents the zero-degree of politics. The nature of Twitter is to put you in a loop—someone says something, you reply, and then a few minutes later, it has lost all its meaning. And now all politicians are using Twitter for their communications. And that can distort not only the present, but the instant—particularly, if in the very next instant, the message is totally different. In that case, you are no longer obliged to remember what was said just three minutes earlier. In this kind of politics, it’s all about, first, reaction, and then emotion. And, of course, you have no space for any kind of reflection or analysis. You cannot take any distance to assess. You have to be on the spot, every minute.

Fortune: Will your next book reflect upon our shared coronavirus experience, and how it may or may not influence our relationship with time?

Hartog: My next book is called Chronos: The West’s Struggle with Time. It was supposed to come out in May. But it’s been postponed because of the crisis. It will now come out in October. It’s not a history of time, but it takes the long view on the question of our understanding of time from the Christian world up to the Anthropocene—this present crisis included.

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