高德思：在25歲的時(shí)候建立一個(gè)自己的董事會(huì)真是件無(wú)比聰明的事,。我想我要列舉出周?chē)晒θ耸康奈妩c(diǎn)品質(zhì)，因?yàn)樵谥袊?guó)總是有很多年輕人問(wèn)我,，如果他們想要成為一個(gè)有魅力的成功雇員,，或是要?jiǎng)?chuàng)業(yè)的話，需要什么樣的品質(zhì),。這是很有趣的問(wèn)題,，各個(gè)國(guó)家可能不盡相同,。但是我認(rèn)為這五個(gè)品質(zhì)是最基本的,、共通的,。你如何來(lái)輔導(dǎo)那些20到25歲之間的年輕人呢？如果說(shuō)以三十歲為最后期限的話,，這些人還是有時(shí)間來(lái)思考的,。還有時(shí)間來(lái)思考自己的性格和價(jià)值觀,。我再次想到我們前面談到的現(xiàn)象,。

中國(guó)在過(guò)去20到30年里經(jīng)歷的經(jīng)濟(jì)社會(huì)變化是美國(guó)人無(wú)法理解的,，一些最根本的事物改變了。

是的?，F(xiàn)在有整整一代的年輕人進(jìn)入了社會(huì),，開(kāi)始工作,，他們要尋找精神支點(diǎn),，尋找指導(dǎo)原則,。這讓他們感到困惑。我認(rèn)為這是很讓人困惑的,，中國(guó)的媒體也充斥著關(guān)于這些方面的討論和辯論,。此外,，這代年輕人是獨(dú)生子女,，從小不僅父母溺愛(ài),，祖父母和外祖父母也是百般疼愛(ài)?，F(xiàn)在很多人都關(guān)注并擔(dān)心被稱(chēng)為小皇帝,、小公主的這一代人。這將影響社會(huì)環(huán)境中人們自我認(rèn)識(shí)的形成,。但是,，我想你所舉的關(guān)于個(gè)人董事會(huì)的例子,，所表達(dá)的意思就是,，現(xiàn)在開(kāi)始改變并不算晚,。事實(shí)上，我們?cè)诰庉嫛敦?cái)富》（中文版）的過(guò)程中,，看到了人們態(tài)度的轉(zhuǎn)變?，F(xiàn)在中國(guó)傳統(tǒng)價(jià)值和哲學(xué)思想，無(wú)論是儒家,、道家還是易經(jīng),，又開(kāi)始熱了起來(lái)。當(dāng)我第一次去中國(guó)的時(shí)候,，可沒(méi)有這么受歡迎,。但是現(xiàn)在又火了起來(lái),?？赡苁?0到15年之前開(kāi)始的,，那時(shí)大家又開(kāi)始對(duì)《孫子兵法》一類(lèi)的書(shū)產(chǎn)生興趣，將其作為管理的理論來(lái)學(xué)習(xí),。但是，現(xiàn)在應(yīng)用得更加廣泛了,。人們?cè)噲D平衡工作和生活,，想要回歸傳統(tǒng)價(jià)值觀,，以適應(yīng)當(dāng)前的狀況和挑戰(zhàn)。

吉姆·柯林斯：我僅僅是結(jié)合我們的研究和我自己的經(jīng)歷來(lái)談,，但是如果要應(yīng)用到一個(gè)并不熟悉的文化當(dāng)中去,，我還是會(huì)有所顧忌。因此我盡量不要擴(kuò)展太多,，只是分享一些我在這里的所見(jiàn)所聞。

如果看看我們研究的這些杰出人士,，就會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)在他們成長(zhǎng)過(guò)程中最有趣的就是他們自己的軌跡,。在成長(zhǎng)的過(guò)程中，他們有兩個(gè)標(biāo)志性的行為特別突出,。

一是他們會(huì)積極融入那些他們認(rèn)為是高素質(zhì)人才的圈子里去,。但是他們不會(huì)去想哪些工作才是最好的工作。他們會(huì)想哪些人是我想要交往的,。如果某些公司或者企業(yè)擁有大量?jī)?yōu)秀人才的話,，你就可以與這些優(yōu)秀的人來(lái)往。這樣的話你自己也會(huì)變得更加優(yōu)秀,，因?yàn)槟闾幱趦?yōu)秀人才的包圍之中,。?

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Thomas D. Gorman: So, the idea of creating your personal board of directors of the age of 25 is a remarkably savvy thing to do. I guess what I'd like to do is try to turn the five attributes of the right people around, because I've been asked by young people in China what qualities do I need to develop to become an attractive and successful employee and begin my career? It's a very interesting question and of course, there may be some differences from country to country, but I think really the five attributes that you have identified are pretty fundamental and pretty universal. So, the question is, how would you counsel young people if they're in the age group of 20 to 25, I think what you're saying is there's still time to think about, if you take your quote regarding age 30 as the deadline. Still time to think about character traits and values. Again, I think one of the phenomena we talked about earlier; China in the past 20-30 years has undergone phenomenal socio-economic change in a way that...

In levels that I think, I know as an American I can't comprehend, just the fundamentals that have changed.

Correct. So, you have a whole younger generation now coming into the society coming into the work force looking for anchors and looking for guidelines and it's confusing. I think it's very confusing and the Chinese media is full of discussion and debate about that. Added to which, you have a generation of single children who are doted upon, not only by mom and dad, but grandpa and grandma, and so on. There's a widespread awareness and concern about these little emperors and empresses as they're called. That has a formative influence on how somebody thinks about themselves in the context of society. But, I think what you're saying, and the example you use about your personal board of directors is, there's still time, and one of the things we're seeing, we're seeing this in editing the magazine and we're seeing it in attitudes. There's a tremendous resurgence of interest in traditional Chinese values, philosophy, whether it be Confucianism or Taoism or even the Yi Jing . Which when I first went to China, were not exactly popular, to say the least. But, that's coming back now, and I think we're seeing that, it probably started maybe 10-15 years ago, with the renewed interest in books like "The Art of War" as a management treatise. But, now it's much broader than that, it's people trying to balance work-life issues and trying to come up with perhaps a return to traditional values and adaptation to the current situation and the current challenges.

Jim Collins: I can only speak through the lens of our research and my own experience and I'm hesitant to extend it to a culture that I know that I don't know. So, what I'll do, is try not to over extend and just share what I've seen here.

If I look at the people, the exceptional people that we've studied, one of things that's really interesting if you look back as they developed, their own trajectory. They have two signature behaviors I think that jump out as they develop.

One is, they actively try to seek being in the orbit of folks that they considered to be high quality people. So, they don't necessarily think in terms of what job would be the best job. They might think, who would I want to be associated with, so if there are certain kinds of companies, or certain types of enterprises where they just seem to have a lot of outstanding people, you begin associating with outstanding people, you're more likely to have good things happen, just because you're around outstanding people.

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Jim Collins: And I like to tell young people here who are trying to decide what to do, which job, which company. And my response is, it's the wrong question, it's who. There may be this job, but it's got great "who's." And there might be this great job, but not necessarily the who's you want. Go for the who's, the people, when you’re starting out especially; they're going to have the greatest impact on you. My own experience, I was very, very, very lucky, because my first, I ran my own climbing school in college, it's how I paid for college in part, along with scholarships, whatever. But, my first kind of real job, outside of college, was McKinsey & Company and I already knew how to do analysis and I could do economic modeling and all that. That's not what I got out of McKinsey, what I got out of McKinsey was, Marvin Bower had built the firm. I went there in 1980 and it was still in its real development stages, he had built the firm on a set of values. And on the caliber of a person. And so all the people that I immediately was working with shaped my professional standards at age 22. I sometimes think, what would have happened if I would have went to work at 22 in a place that didn't have professional standards? Maybe I would have never gotten that kind of professional ethic that I got when I was 22. That was a great stroke of luck because I didn't know what I was doing, I was just taking the job. If I could go back and say, I want to replicate that luck, it would be, where are we going to find the best people, not necessarily where you're going to find the best job.

The second though is, results. I mean, you look at Darwin Smith, you look at Coleman Mockler, you look at Bill Allen, you look at all these people, they weren't giant successes when they started. It's just that everything they did, everything even when they just had one little thing, maybe not necessarily even in business, they were, I don't know, delivering newspapers. Everything they did when they got their hands on it, they made it the very, very best it could be. And they delivered results, they did what they said they were going to do, and they performed exceptionally well and the amazing thing, the flip side earlier we were talking about, companies are growing, they need great people. On the other hand you have young people saying how do I get started? So, there's the great question, how do you get those (two things) together? Well, sometimes it's, just start with anything with some people who you look up to, then just, I don't care what it is, do a fantastic job early, deliver exceptional results, they will speak. And it may take awhile but that is really the starting point.