高德思：你剛剛談到了公司與其所在的社會之間的關系,。我想知道在你看來,，就社會中的公司而言，一個繁榮的社會和一個卓越的社會有什么區(qū)別,？

吉姆·柯林斯：盡管我崇敬微軟,，但是我對比爾·蓋茨的尊敬主要不是來自于微軟這家公司，而是來自于他在創(chuàng)立微軟之后所做的事。從小他父母就教導他,，如果你創(chuàng)造了大量財富,，掙了很多錢，或取得了什么成功,，都不是什么大不了的事兒,。如果說你不去關注，不去解決那些公司和政府都無法解決的問題的話,，那么那些所謂的成功也沒什么大不了的,。

彼得·德魯克說過，公司都是擅長于某一方面,，他們在這方面會比其他人都做得好,。但這是他們應該做到的。他們很擅長通過盈利機制來捐款,。政府也擅長做一些事情,，但是同時在其它許多事情上也會失敗。因此在社會領域就有很大一塊“中間地帶”,，其中有些大問題需要解決,。

Thomas D. Gorman: You talked earlier about the relationship between companies and the societies in which they function in. I'd be interested to get your view on the distinction between a prosperous society and a great society, with respect to the companies in it.

Jim Collins: I have great respect for Bill Gates because not principally of Microsoft, which I do have respect for. But because what he's been doing since. And he was raised by his parents with the idea that if you just create wealth, or you just make a lot of money, or you just make a success, it doesn't really add up to very much. If you haven't actually, also, one way or another, put emphasis on how do we make the whole, solve really big problems that can't be solved by business and likely can't be solved by government.

And Peter Drucker talked about the idea that businesses are good for some things, they do that better than anyone else. But, that's what they should do. They're very good at contributions where you can fund the contribution through the profit mechanism.Government is good at certain things, but has largely failed at many others. So, there's this whole middle area of the social sectors where big problems have to be addressed.

?

Jim Collins: And a great society is one that isn't just composed of great companies and economic law that has great education systems. It has great art organizations, it has great government agencies, you need to have a great police department, you need to have great military units. You need to have great health care systems. And they may be funded a lot of different ways. But, if we only have great companies that produce substantial wealth and that's all we have, we are prosperous. But we are not a great nation. And that I think is the challenge, to put all of these together.

And in the United States we believe very much in the idea of a social sector that gets cared for and funded by the private sector by individuals doing it. I don't know how that would play out in China, however, the philanthropic urge, I think is strong everywhere in the world.

Thomas D. Gorman: Yes.

Jim Collins: And one of the really interesting questions, which is something my dear friend Tom Tierney who runs a thing called Bridgespan, keeps challenging us to all think about, is what is really the difference between a great philanthropist and a not great philanthropist in terms of real impact on the society? And you're going to have a lot of wealth, I mean, all these very wealthy Chinese who have produced incredibly successful companies, my question for them is, ok, that's a good start, what's next?